What's Wrong With HP Fans?

[penfold_x]

Read furiosity's post regarding the number of Harry Potter fans who not only don't read gen fic, but claim to hate it. Lots of comments remarking on the scarcity of HP gen fic, something I've noticed in my own (mostly fruitless) search for readable, enjoyable HP gen fic. Which leads me to ask:

What the hell is wrong with you people?
No, really, what's wrong with HP fans? I've been in quite a few fandoms, and I've never had this much difficulty finding gen fic. While I am, as one person described, a "militant genner," I have quite a few slasher and shipper friends in my various fandoms, and I've spent time exploring sites and communities outside of my reading interests, so I think I have a pretty good picture of what's out there. In every case, be it Star Trek, Star Wars, Stargate SG-1, Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Real Ghostbusters, The Sentinel, Magnificent 7, Man from Uncle -- virtually any current fandom -- there is a large, active gen fiction community. I cracked open the program from last year's Media*West Con to check my perception against the list of last year's premiering zines: of about 100 new zines, approximately half were gen. Even Lord of the Rings, home of crazed RPS ficcers, had at least two gen zines last year.

One factor might be the lack of "old time" fans in HP fandom (this would neatly explain the lack of print zines as well). I can't say that I've examined this in any scientific way, but I get the impression from LJ the and few HP lists I've subscribed to that HP has a higher percentage of youger fans and people for whom this is their first fandom (compared to fandoms like Stargate or The Sentinel). I don't recognize a lot of the pen names I've encountered. Of course, this is a hard thing to gauge in a fandom that seems to be much more diffuse than other fandoms (a result of so much of the fandom being located in LJ?).

Others might argue that HP has an inordinatly large number of canon characters, several of whom are in canon relationships, or for whom JKR is dropping anvils, which leads to the relationship-heavy nature of HP fic. However, none of these canon relationships take up a great portion of canon; JKR doesn't spend pages delving into the Malfoys' marital angst or the Weasleys' after-hours action. Even the Ron/Hermione relationship takes up relatively little space, considering they're the two principle supporting characters. One can argue that some canon or near canon shipping is to be expected, but canon pairings don't account for the vast majority of ship and slash. What of the reams of fic written about "Draco turn[ing] into a godlike were-leopard by way of buttsex with Mrs. Norris" and other similarly remote, bizarre ship and slash fic? HP fans seem to delight in pairing characters that have never appeared in the same chapter, let alone exchanged three words. Most of the pairings in other fandoms seem to arise out of fans' perception of UST. Almost all of the HP pairings have no canon UST. Not a shadow. Not a shred. Not a scintilla. And few fans even bother to argue that they perceive any. So I don't think that can be it.

All I want is sharks with laser beams a little decent gen. Character studies, missing scenes, alternate endings, meta commentaries, a little hurt/comfort. Throw me a frickin' bone, people.

Comments

[hobsonphile.livejournal.com]

Word McWord. You've just summarized why I refuse to touch HP fandom with a ten foot pole, even though I greatly enjoy the books. Where is the gen? Where are the simple friendship fics and the long, plotty adventures? The plausible AU's? And yes, the platonic hurt/comfort, my kink to end all kinks?

*stays in Babylon 5 fandom, where gen is alive and well*

[cleverthylacine]

Er, well. I write a plausible AU or two, but there's slash and het content in there mixed up with the gen.

[nausica2.livejournal.com]

Well said. Most everybody in the fandom has a pairing. There are little people who don't have one.

Personally I don't really read fics. It's difficult to explain, but it's an ongoing story, it's a book and feels weird. I've read shoebox_project, though. Some of it is very OOC, but other stuff is funny, especially the careers advice part.

In Stargate I don't want any pairing at all, but here I wouldn't mind Ron/Hermione and I can understand why people see Sirius/Remus (I love their frienship, but saw lots of subtext in Cuaron's film and even in OoTP).

What I find most intriguing are the pairings that come from developing characters that aren't very developed in the books, mainly Draco. There you can see there are lots of young fans in here.

I think it was xochiquetzl who said Stargate is an "old school" fandom when she was discussing the OTP thing. It's interesting to notice the difference between these two fandoms, yes.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

I can understand why people see Sirius/Remus (I love their frienship, but saw lots of subtext in Cuaron's film and even in OoTP).

*squints through determinately gen eyes*

Yes, given the hug in PoA, and the whole "we're part of a tragic group of friends torn by grief," I can see the argument.

What I find most intriguing are the pairings that come from developing characters that aren't very developed in the books, mainly Draco. There you can see there are lots of young fans in here.

Yes, I can see that, going back to the previous "Draco is a cipher girls project onto discussion."

There's an awful lot of fic written about characters for whom we have only the vaguest notion (Blaise, Justin, Susan, Padma, etc). It's an odd trend.

[graculus.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Where do we start with this? Personally, I swore I'd never get into HP fandom but it kind of grabbed me - alas, the good gen just isn't anything like as commonplace. There's bad slash out there but the worst slash seems to be *way* better than the worst gen, which falls into all the cliches a 14-year old MarySue writer can imagine. Even the most popular gen tropes out there (Severitus, Harry rescued from the Dursleys) show a startling lack of imagination.

I think you have to look at what people read before you can consider what they write. HP is a self-sustaining fandom in a lot of ways, with a lot of people in HP alone (many of them apparently under the illusion that they invented fandom), so where's the exposure to well-written gen as a comparison?

And if the average age of the writers is as low as we suspect it is, then they're not going to be approaching writing gen with the same literary background (both fandom and otherwise) as people who've been around longer.

Maybe people just aren't seeing the same gaps in canon to fill? I find there's generally scorn towards AUs, so I'm not even going into that subject, but you'd think there'd be much more room for manoeuvre, wouldn't you?

Personally, I'd say your inherent criticism of the ease the slashers write all sorts of pairings in HP shows they have much more of an imagination than the gen fans, but I think you'd also find that many of the people producing the most weird (and often wonderful, oddly enough) slash are significantly older than the mean.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

There's bad slash out there but the worst slash seems to be *way* better than the worst gen, which falls into all the cliches a 14-year old MarySue writer can imagine.

It makes me want to hide my face in shame. I'm beginning to think I got rather spoiled over in SG, where there were so many fine gen writers. I'd put the gen SG up against the slash SG any day. And that's not even mentioning the high proportion of good h/c.

(many of them apparently under the illusion that they invented fandom)

*snort* Did I tell you about one of the HP4GU websites that I ran into where the creator claimed HP4GU coined the term 'ship'?

Maybe people just aren't seeing the same gaps in canon to fill?

That's a really good point. Most canon sources are episodic, which I think leaves a great deal more in terms of gaps. There are some examples of movies spawning huge traditional fandoms (like SW), but movies and books do seem on the whole less likely to generate traditional fanfic fandoms.

Also, the books are all Harry POV, which I suppose can be limiting. But I would think that the flip side of that is retelling stories from other characters' POV (for example, CoS from Lockhart POV has the potential to be incredibly amusing, while PS/SS or OotP from Snape's POV could be exciting).

I find there's generally scorn towards AUs, so I'm not even going into that subject, but you'd think there'd be much more room for manoeuvre, wouldn't you?

As you know, I adore AUs (esp if they are dark and tragic), so you wouldn't hear me complain, but yes, I would actually think HP would generate quite a few AUs (ie, Neville as TBWL, Harry's parents live). I came close to applying for an AU RPG because of the intriguing plot line.

[raveninthewind.livejournal.com]

Hhuh.

I guess I've always found it pretty easy to find gen I like in the HP fandom when I was in the mood for it, and I like HP gen better than the gen in most other fandoms, too. But because I don't read mainly gen, I suppse my desire isn't as unquenchable as yours is.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

Do you have a rec list?

[raveninthewind.livejournal.com]

I will grant that HP has the weirdest pairings of any fandom I am familiar with, along with some of the most persistent shippers of unconventional pairings.

[imkalena.livejournal.com]

It also has the most people I've ever seen who are willing to read and write several (or many) slash pairings, not to mention a lot of people who like threesomes, foursomes, and orgies. This really hasn't happened much, that I recall, in XF, Sentinel, or Due South. Once in a while, yeah, but HP is awash in them.

[ginnytonnick.livejournal.com]

You made the metafandom community. :)

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

I still don't want a lapdance.

...

Just so we're clear.

[telepwen.livejournal.com]

I love you. You illustrate my points exactly. Why does fanfiction have to be shippy nothing but slash?

That said, I write nothing but gen (http://www.thedarkarts.org/authorLinks/Telepwen/).

Me? A feedback whore? Never.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

Me? A feedback whore? Never.

Nuttin' wrong with that.

[fernwithy.livejournal.com]

Here from D_S.

Well, there are a couple of gen communities, but we don't get much in terms of recs (other than the page that jetamors keeps). It doesn't seem to be part of the social aspect of HP fandom, where people flock by ship rather than just by character (which I don't get, personally, but I've gone off on this subject quite frequently). There's good stuff out there; it's just not publicized.

If you don't mind drabbles, there's hpgen100, and there's a monthly challenge at hp_gen_ch.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the suggestions.

It doesn't seem to be part of the social aspect of HP fandom, where people flock by ship rather than just by character (which I don't get, personally, but I've gone off on this subject quite frequently).

This is another thing that's been puzzling me. I've never experienced a fandom as diffuse as HP. I feel sort of left out of HP, like there's a hidden key or secret handshake I haven't figured out yet.

[maubast.livejournal.com]

Here from daily_snitch

One factor might be the lack of "old time" fans in HP fandom (this would neatly explain the lack of print zines as well).

There were two zine agents carrying print HP zines. One carried slash zines and r'cd a C&D from Ms. Rowlings solicitors (I believe that is who it was from - I do know of a certainty she r'cd a C&D) so she stopped carrying those fanzines. The other agent carries 1 genzine.

[magicicada.livejournal.com]

Thank you for that. I very much agree with you. I don't at all mind fic that include ships, slash, femslash or het, but I want something with a plot and insight into characters and themes and something more than just an excuse to get Character A together with Character B. The Harry Potter books have so many aspects that deserve exploring more than just romantic relationships and sex, even in fics that sometimes involve them.

Jetamors’ Page of Gen Recs (http://www.geocities.com/tapairuparauri//genrecs.html) is a good source of genfic.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the recommendation!

[kayling.livejournal.com]

here via DS as well.

I completely understand where you're coming from. Before HP, I was in Buffy, and there's a nearly endless supply of gen or at least non-ship-focused fics there. While I've been in HP a rather long time (since 2001), I still search out gen fic every now and then when I get fed up with seeing crazy shit like Lily/Squid or Padfoot/Whomping Willow.

For a bit of fic pimping:
copperbadge writes a wonderful mostly gen AU fic called Stealing Harry. It's got slash as the "main" couple, but their relationship is not the major focus of the fic. I definitely recommend it: http://oojahs.snoo.org/frontpage.htm

[kayling.livejournal.com]

gah, that's supposed to be 'copperbadge writes...' stupid LJ tags.

Here via d_s

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

It's funny how romance and sex-obsessed HP fandom is, considering that the books themselves have very little in the way of sex and romance. I wonder if the obsession with relationships in HP fanfic are filling a vacuum in that sense? I'm only in one other fandom - Earth's Children which is teeny-tiny - and while the books are pr0narrific, almost all the fanfics are heavily gen, or the romances are heavily mixed in with gen stuff.

Re: Here via d_s

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

Very odd! That's an interesting observation. I can see how that could play a role.

[eleventyteen.livejournal.com]

The lack of gen (or rather the obscene amount of ship fic) could be because of HP's target age group and setting. With all the hormones raging in the tweens and teens, when relationships and sex are The Big Thing. A school setting such as Hogwarts, is perfect for creating (or revisiting for older fans) those adolescent fantasies.

I don't think you can really compare the gen and ship fic proportions between HP and other sci-fi fandoms because of the great difference in setting. I know in my anime fandoms, the series that are set in high school have far smaller gen-to-ship fic proportions than series about pirates or space pilots, even though both have the same amount of canon relationships.

On top of that, many people read/write fanfics just to scratch an itch. My taste in original fiction is almost a complete 180 from the fics I read. In HP, and other fandoms, I read just ship fics (though favoring those heavy in plot) within particular boundaries and characterization. In original fiction, I like as little romance as possible (unless it's unusual.) I prefer action and/or strong character development, and writers who go out on a limb.

I'll admit to not reading many HP fics to begin with, I can't find a fic that proper characterizations within the ships I like. True, I enjoy unlikely ships, but it doesn't mean everyone has to act like an teen drama queen. :(

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

A school setting such as Hogwarts, is perfect for creating (or revisiting for older fans) those adolescent fantasies.

Very interesting point.

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

I think part of the problem is that the books are gen, and since shippy authors know it won't be in the books... they write it in fics.

Which isn't always bad, but I want more gen myself.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

I [heart] your icon, big time.

[ellid.livejournal.com]

You have a point...I can't get into the kids being involved, either with each other or any of the adults, but I have no trouble writing about the adult characters.

marinarusalka writes terrific gen fics for Harry Potter, and theatresm does a fine job integrating plot into a slowly developing romance in "Brave New World." She also demolished the old WIKTT marriage law challenge with "Chaos is Come Again." I found the ending very depressing, but the writing was superb.

[(Anonymous)]

I'm not really big on gen fic and I guess I can try to explain why...

We are, in fact, filling a gap in the novels. Because there is no romance, or, when there is, it is horribly awkward and young. Yes, the average age of the HP fandom is young (understandably) so we remember what it's like in high school and/or are currently in it.

And, as much as I love JKR, she's got the romance wrong. Not that shippers are realistic either, but that element is entirely missing and it's definately something teenagers think about. I guess there's less need for adventure/plot since we get so much in canon and more need for character development (especially in a romantic sense.) That also explains the focus on Draco or other minor characters, we know Harry- so why focus all writing on him? It's more creative to try someone else.

And Remus/Sirius IS canon.

-Bree, bree9643@hotmail.com

Here from D_S.

[(Anonymous)]

And I second the "Stealing Harry" rec and also recommend the Draco Trilogy, which has romance but also long, plotty adventure. (http://www.livejournal.com/users/epicyclical/)
-Bree

from d_s

[livii.livejournal.com]

One thing I've observed re: overwhelming shippiness in HP is that we experienced a three year gap in canon right after the end of the fourth book - when things started getting a bit shippy in canon. There was the ball, we now had Remus and Sirius and more human Snape, etc, and I think fandom got sort of...stuck, there. IMO lots of the angst over OotP not being as "good", etc. was that it didn't turn into a romance novel, which was the frame of mind so many fans were in.

It gets self-perpetuating after that, too - if you want feedback and recs, you have to write ship in this fandom.

Anyway, this is just speculation, my reading patterns are way skewed vs. fandom generally, so it's an outsider's perspective. ;)

To round off this too long comment, I'm going to second hpgen100 because it's really very good.

Re: from d_s

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

One thing I've observed re: overwhelming shippiness in HP is that we experienced a three year gap in canon right after the end of the fourth book - when things started getting a bit shippy in canon. There was the ball, we now had Remus and Sirius and more human Snape, etc, and I think fandom got sort of...stuck, there. IMO lots of the angst over OotP not being as "good", etc. was that it didn't turn into a romance novel, which was the frame of mind so many fans were in.

That's a very interesting piece of fandom history that I didn't know. I only started reading HP right before OotP came out, so I have no idea what the fandom was like pre-GOF. I think it would have been very interesting to witness the evolution of the fandom from pre-movie, to post-movie, to post GOF. I can imagine a lot of changes as the fanbase changes and the novels introduce more adult themes, esp romance.

[midnitemaraud-r.livejournal.com]

It's funny. When I first started reading HP fic, I read strictly genfic. The first story I ever read was "After the End" by Zsenya and Arabella, and the second was Robin's Unbroken Universe, which was recced previously. I prefer character driven stories in general, and since there was no romance written into the books, I wasn't thinking about that genre in the fics I read.

Remus and Sirius were my two favorite characters though, so I started searching for marauder era fics. Imagine my surprise when I started reading a story where they were shipped. :) The story itself was godawful, so I didn't finish it, but the idea of them as a couple intrigued me, so I searched out more. Found a bunch that were also godawful, but I found quite a few that were very good. I re-read the books, and while I'm still not of the "embraced him like a lover" ilk, I discovered that not only did I like them together as a couple, but that stories where they were paired with others or OC's were less appealing. I still read them though - there are quite a few Remus/Hermione, Remus/Tonks, Sirius/OC stories that I really like and enjoy reading, but I don't have the same... zeal, I suppose, for them as I do for stories where they're shipped together.

Maybe that's why I love copperbadge's Stealing Harry so much. But despite the shippiness, it really is an excellent story - and it is gen in my book - the plot revolves around Harry.

But seriously, my fandom story is a bit different from many of the shippers I know and associate with online. I didn't come for the porn, but in spite/because of it, I stayed and got more involved in the fandom. It surprised the hell out of me, too! :)

[amberdiceless.livejournal.com]

(Here via (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=daily_snitch)daily_snitch (http://www.livejournal.com/community/daily_snitch/) or (http://www.livejournal.com/userinfo.bml?user=quickquote)hogwarts_today (http://www.livejournal.com/community/hogwarts_today/))

I second (or third?) the recommendation of jetamors (http://www.livejournal.com/users/jetamors/) list. You might also check out The Sugar Quill (http://www.sugarquill.net) archive, which has probably more quality HP gen than any other repository (though it's kind of a drag to search.) The new Hand Me My Robes (http://www.handmemyrobes.com/) archive accepts genfic, and may turn out to be a good resource, but it seems slanted more toward het and demands a rating of R or higher. Also while I'm here, I'll plug my own comm, close_contrast (http://www.livejournal.com/community/close_contrast/)--the fic we get there (and the masterlist my co-mod keeps) focus narrowly on Snape and McGonagall, but we tend to see a fair amount of gen on that topic.

I agree with your other commentors that age, the tendency to cluster by ship, and the lack of any real romance in canon all play a part in the perceived lack of gen. That said, I also think there's more of it out there than we realize, but that it doesn't attract as much attention as the shippy stuff.

Ships provide a very neat, simple way to categorize a story; gen covers such a wide range of topics (and there are so many available int he HP universe) that you may have to pick through a great deal of material before you find something that really interests you. I think a lot of HP fen don't have the time and/or patience to do that, more's the pity. I also think there's a lack of a well-organized archive that specializes in gen, which could help solve that problem; SQ has tons of material, but their search mechanism sucks, and they don't seem to have a browse-by-topic mechanism at all.

The thing that puzzles me most is the common attitude in the fandom that genfic (and het) are somehow inferior to slash by their very nature; as though "sophisticated" or "mature" writers only deal in slash. Where exactly that idea came from, I have no idea, but I find it irksome on the extreme.

(After thinking on it some more,) Possibly it's a reflection of the fact that the HP series is essentially gen/het, is marketed heavily to children, and is seen in the mainstream as strictly a childrens' series. (This despite the fact that there are two sets of covers for the American editions, one designed for kids and the other for adults. I imagine the same is true in other countries as well. It should be self-evident that the series is absolutely suitable for adults as well.) Perhaps some writers are out to prove that this is not a kiddie fandom, by focusing on the most "adult" subjects they can think of?

[mafdet.livejournal.com]

Perhaps some writers are out to prove that this is not a kiddie fandom, by focusing on the most "adult" subjects they can think of?

That could very well be. I'm also convinced that many ship writers are filling the vacuum left by the canon, which has very little romance.

Also, consider the secondary meaning of "adult" in popular usage - it refers to "sexual content." When we talk of "adult entertainment" most people don't mean a night at the opera. I wonder if, subconsciously, some writers want to include sex and romance so as to seem more sophisticated and mature? I doubt this is done with intention but it does bring up the use of "adult" in our lexicon.

[luthien.livejournal.com]

Well, part of what's up with HP fandom is that there isn't really any such thing as HP fandom as a whole. It's so big that you can easily exist for years in one corner of it without ever even hearing of the BNFs in another corner of it. Yes, certain characters and pairings have a high percentage of younger fans - others not so much. The 'Cult of Snape' corner of the fandom, for example, tends to include a lot more older fans than the Harry/Ginny OTPers.

In my experience, the people who write the good HP gen mostly tend to write slash or het, or both, as well, rather than being specifically or even primarily gen fans. I've recced about half a dozen excellent gen stories on my recs page (http://luthien.ebonyx.org/docs/recs/recs.html), but kaiz has a much more extensive recs page (http://www.squidge.org/~kali/hprecs.html) than mine that includes an entire gen section.

As for current gen, A Year Like None Other (http://aalno.tauri.org/viewstory.php?sid=33) is the story I keep hearing about, though I haven't read any of it yet.

There are more out there, too. Really. It's just a case of digging in the right places.

Sorry for spamming...

[dim54.livejournal.com]

The 'Cult of Snape' corner of the fandom, for example, tends to include a lot more older fans than the Harry/Ginny OTPers.

That's odd, in my experience most H/G'ers are in their 30's, a good amount of them are in their 40's or nearly forty, and I know one who's in their 60's. I think these people are the quiet majority who tend to focus on analysis rather than fanfic. I guess it all depends on where you frequent online. I do wonder where the "The majority of H/G shippers are immature" thing came from.

[schnoogle.livejournal.com]

I seem to attract odd fandoms. Not that I'm in many, or heavily involved at all. ^^ I was reading some stuff the other day about how my other fandom (Law & Order: SVU) has an unusually high amount of femmeslash. One person commented that femmeslash is usually "deep underground in fandom", but in SVU fandom it's incredibly easy to find in quality and quantity.

(here from daily snitch)

[kelly-holden.livejournal.com]

I was reading some stuff the other day about how my other fandom (Law & Order: SVU) has an unusually high amount of femmeslash. One person commented that femmeslash is usually "deep underground in fandom", but in SVU fandom it's incredibly easy to find in quality and quantity.
That's interesting. If I didn't already watch too much telly I'd probably check it out.

[mrs-muggle.livejournal.com]

This is slightly weird. I'd just written an entry in my LJ wondering why almost all HP fanfics are shippy when I turned to my friends page and saw the Daily Snitch link to here. I'll certainly be chasing up these recs.

[randomalia.livejournal.com]

Hey, here from daily_snitch also.

Have you read any of penknife's work? She has some gen fics, as I recall. Wordless (http://www.livejournal.com/users/penknife/107408.html) is a wonderful example, and there are others in the memories.

:)

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

I haven't but I will check her out. Thanks!

[kattahj.livejournal.com]

Well, I might as well take this opportunity to pimp my stuff. I write pretty much anything and have only done three HP fics ever. Of those three, one is a gen Remus drabble (http://geocities.com/katta_hj/fanfic/others/thestamp.html) (100 words) and another is a Remus and Sirius fic (http://geocities.com/katta_hj/fanfic/others/laststage.html) that might be called "subtexty" - it's really up to the reader whether it's read as gen or slash.

Oh, and if you can bear reading stories that have pairings in them but that aren't primarily pairing fics, I really really recommend Blood Magic (http://www.schnoogle.com/authorLinks/GatewayGirl/Blood_Magic/), a long and convoluted fic by Gatewaygirl that's primarily about non-romantic relationships.

[penfold-x.livejournal.com]

I adore Blood Magic.

Thanks for the pimpin'. I'll check you out.

here via the d_s

[ex-lonicera600.livejournal.com]

Gloriously gen:

http://www.livejournal.com/users/tarie/436357.html?thread=2465413#t2465413